What is a story exactly? Another question – what is a brand? But how does telling better stories actually help your brand? Find out the answer to that question and more on this episode of Forward Thinking. When it comes to design and branding your business or making the perfect logo, where do you start? Brendan Hill had a one-on-one with Hayden Bleasel at the time he was the director and lead product designer at Jellypepper, an award-winning digital agency for brands, websites and products. Since then, he has advanced on to becoming the chief design officer at Corellium, where he leads the product and design teams.   During this transition, Metigy has also released Creative Services – a service where we bring visually engaging graphic design to your business so you can capture the right kind of attention and engagement across your social media and marketing efforts. Tune in and learn from Hayden in this episode where he goes beyond the simple branding process and shares more advice and tools for you to use!

What you will learn in this episode:

• How Hayden started his agency in the branding space
• How to work with big brands in the branding field
• The blueprint of helping a client with product design
• The best way to get your first iteration of logo and branding
• The meaning of a “minimum beautiful product”
• The deep meaning behind a logo
• The process behind rebranding a business
• How to implement creative problem solving

Resources mentioned:

• Corellium
• Jellypepper
• Spaceship
• Blackbird
• Airtree
• Grok
• Brighte
• 99 designs
• Fiverr
• Baraja
• Ueno
• MetaLab
• Otter
• Clear Motion
• Xero
• Tobias van Schneider

Design tools:

• Dovetail
• Illustrator
• Framer
• Sketch
• Figma
• Adobe XD
• Notion

What business would you build on Mars?

I’m tempted to say Instagram just because I think it would be really funny to see a thousand filtered pictures of red dirt everyday – everyone just commenting on each other’s red dirt.  I would probably do an interplanetary telco. That would be really fun. The first thing you’d want to do when you land on Mars is to check in back home, see how everything is going and the branding of that would be so easy. Tug at the heartstrings.

Reach Hayden Bleasel here:

• on Linkedin
• on Twitter
• on his website

Transcript

Daren: Question – what is a story exactly? From oxford dictionary – “By an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.” Another question – what is a brand? From investopedia – “a business and marketing concept that helps people identify a particular company, product, or individual” Okay… makes sense. But how does telling better stories actually help your brand? Find out the answer to that question and more on this episode of Forward Thinking. This episode is all about branding. And in particular branding through storytelling. And to tell us all about how important that is for you business we have chief design officer, Hayden Bleasel from Corellium. A company that wants to solve the challenges that mobile developers face. Hayden has worked with companies such as Google, Nike, Toyota, National Geographic and more. A few things you’ll learn in this episode; The best way to get your first iteration of logo and branding, the meaning of a “minimum beautiful product”, the deep meaning behind a logo, the process behind rebranding a business, a and much more. Let’s get into the episode with Hayden and our head of content Brendan Hill. Brendan: Hayden, welcome to the show.  Hayden: Thanks man. Thanks for having me  Brendan: Very excited to talk to you today. We haven’t had anyone in the branding and design field come on the podcast yet. And I’ve been a long time reader of your blog as well at Jellypepper. I really like how you sort of tell the story from the very inception. I mean, you show the first email that a client sends to you or a text message, and then you take us through the process step-by-step, so super interested to dig deeper into that. But first off, I wanted to find out how you got started in the design and branding space.  Hayden: Yeah, absolutely. I think my style was a little bit different to probably most designers. I didn’t actually start as a designer. I started as a. A front end developer. So actually probably the majority of my working career, I was mostly a front end developer. So just building sites that people had given me the designs for, and then eventually realizing that, you know, it’d be really great if you could store that data. So people could actually have profiles and stuff like that. So back in developer, you know, infrastructure engineer, all that sort of stuff only actually moved into design. I don’t know, maybe three years ago or something. It was a bit of a rapid transition. But I think the front end development definitely helped. Yeah. Always sort of seeing the web as like a canvas. I feel like there’s a, there’s a big crossover between front end development and design. So once you understand like exactly how sites are constructed, it’s much easier to think about it like that from a design perspective.  Brendan: So you’ve had a bit of a rapid progression in the last three years and you’ve got clients now, like Canva, Google, spaceship. I mean, what’s it been like to work with these leading brands being so new in this field?  Hayden: Strange. Cause you know, the biggest sort of thing that I did before spaceship was like a stint at Palentier. Yeah. Going straight into like an agency. I had no intention of starting an agency, by the way, that was completely random. I was sort of like, you know, post spaceship, just thinking about, you know, what I want to do next. Like whether I want to start another startup or go work for Apple or something like that. I thought I would just freelance for a little bit. So it’s like just what go around sydney and help a couple of startups out with their products. And then, you know, I got a couple of freelance gigs, but those gigs were a lot more than just product design. They were like, oh, you know what you did for spaceship with all that, you know, the great product and the hype and the growth. Can you, can you do that for us? I’m like, sure. I would need a brand design or illustrator, you know, motion designer, all that sort of stuff. So eventually sort of cobbled together into an agency.  Brendan: What happened after you started your agency?  Hayden: We started off with like, I guess clients that we knew, startups that we were connected with through VCs. Right. So for instance, Bright was a really great one. I think we got connected with them from Jeremy, from Grok ventures and I’d never met the dude personally, but he was just like, oh yeah. You’ve done great work for spaceship. And you run an agency now, why don’t we put you in touch with Brighton? See how that goes. So a lot of our early clients were just like referred from like Blackbird, Airtree, stuff like that, grok  Brendan: Talk me through the process at Jellypepper. I mean, you’ve got a couple of things up on the website about your process, you know, strategy, branding, product, marketing. Can you talk us through, I mean, your version of what your process is?  Hayden: Yeah. Well, we try to be, I guess what we refer to as like a full stack creative studio, that term is being so overused, but it is what it is full service, I guess, but it’s essentially the idea that. When I was at spaceship, for example, you know, we really wanted originally before I was sort of hide, I think we’re in the early stages of me working there, we were looking for an agency to help us out with like, you know, we had to get a super portal up. It had to be designed. Our brand was, you know, a bit weak, that sort of things. But you know, there wasn’t a lot of great digital product agencies. There are nowadays like us two is pretty good. Essentially there wasn’t a lot of great agencies to help out with leading edge companies and startups and products and stuff like that. We sort of worked with freelancers who showed promise. When I started freelancing, I guess the goal was like help out those startups, that it’s very difficult for them to do a branding project because there’s no precedence for it. You know, it’s like self-driving cars or artificial intelligence. There’s not exactly like a market standard or an industry standard for how they should look. And so yeah, they found it a lot more difficult to sort of brand themselves and do product design because they weren’t sure exactly what they should look like.  Brendan: So for a company like bright, for example, can you tell us more about what they do? And I know you’ve done a lot of work for them, so can you give us an idea of, I guess the before and after?  Hayden: Brighte do sustainable energy financing. That’s like the short version of how we sort of talk about it. But essentially what they do is that if you want to get solar panels on your place or, you know, basically do any sort of upgrades to your home that is in relation to sustainable energy, you buy it from a vendor and the bright is sort of like a capital pool, more or less. So they pay the vendor upfront and then you pay back bright over however long. It is like 12 months, 24 months, but specifically targeted for home renovations in sustainable energy, which I found really interesting because it’s one of those things where if you think about. Like you’d hope so anyway, but over time, the money that you save based on having this sustainable energy installation, you know, it might take a bit off your payment cost as well. So I found that really interesting.  Brendan: And what kind of work did you do for those guys?  Hayden: Brighte was branding and product design. So essentially what we did is. They already had a logo in place, which they really liked that the light bulb would, the interesting font didn’t get to touch the logo, unfortunately, but it is, it’s not a bad logo. So we took that, but we sort of created the digital application around it. So, you know, the color palette, the typography, iconography, imagery, all that sort of stuff, particularly for digital implementations. Yeah, websites, digital marketing videos, stuff like that. So once we’d sort of nailed that and we’d had like a boil plate, like foundational science system or brand in place, we help them out with their product design. So I think Brighte’s original app was targeted towards vendors, but they wanted to come out with one that was more consumer focused. So actually pushing it on the homeowners. Making it putting the onus on the homeowners to start the process. It’s like, oh, you know, I want this energy installation, or I want this solar panel installed on my roof. So moving into that sort of vertical where your, you know, I guess consumer first, they wanted to put together obviously a really hot app around that, but obviously make sure that the user flows as well, where we’re really.  Brendan: And you mentioned logo design, so early stage businesses out there, they might not have a lot of money to spend on a logo or, you know, branding in the early days. What’s your sort of opinion on these sites, like, you know, 99 designs, Fiverr, what’s the best way for an early stage business to get their first iteration of their logo. and branding?  Hayden: I’m actually a huge fan of those websites. I think spaceship’s logo was done on 99 designs. Before my time so I did that for five bucks or whatever it is probably super mad at themselves, but no, I think they’re really good just because, you know, when you’re a startup, you sort of. You know, even though it would be really nice to have a super sexy brand beautiful product design, you have to work with, you have to go to war with the army. You have I suppose, center. So you gotta take the resources that you’ve got divvy them up. You know, I’m not supposed to say it running an agency, but branding is not super important at the start. Especially if your one goal is to stay alive and try and find product market fit. So I always sort of think that if you’ve got the resources, yes, you should. You know, investing branding invest in a, in a beautiful product design and try to make design one of your differentiators – Another sort of wall of defensibility. But yeah, if you’re a startup, if you’re pre series round or if you’re still looking for product market fit, yeah. Utilize all these sort of cheaper crowdsourcing style platforms. Brendan: Yeah. Any particulars that you liked the best?  Hayden: 99 designs is obviously quite a good one. Fiverr’s quality when it comes to logos is a bit awful, but we occasionally use or if we need to do voiceover. Yeah. So there are some really good voiceover artists on there.  Brendan: So good Morgan Freeman impersonators?  Hayden: I wish! I really want to find one,  Brendan: There’s a couple of good ones. Share them in the show notes after. And you talk about something that, I mean, we’ve touched on and I’m not sure if you coined this phrase, but you’ve mentioned it in a lot of your online publications, minimum beautiful product. So can you talk more on that? Hayden: Yeah, of course. So that actually came out of something that we were doing at Spaceship, which is effectively, we had to create an MVP for our super portal. Yeah. Superannuation dashboard. And obviously when you don’t have any product and you really want to get customers on board, your number one thing should be creating your MBA, pay, ride, get it out the door, get people using it, all that sort of stuff. I think what I realized is that after we launched this portal, because it was so MVP is, and it was the only motivator was speed. We started to get some user feedback, which is like, oh, you know, this thing doesn’t make sense. It’s not like, why was this button here? But it’s like, I don’t understand why this flow works. Right. And they’re all pretty standard, like UX issues or like, you know, low detail UI issues. So I started thinking, like, it would be a lot more valuable if startups actually put the effort into at least just like cleaning up all these like UX and UI issues before launching their minimum viable product. Because the user feedback that you get, you don’t get like, oh, this obvious thing doesn’t work, you know, it’s more like focused on the actual product itself. Yeah.  How did you gather that feedback when you were at spaceship and then implement it?  We did it in a pretty unstructured way. We sort of just had Intercom set up and we would do get really personal, like chat with the customers. I used to jump on the Intercom when I wasn’t like coding or designing and just like have just open conversations with people about, you know, what they think about the product and what they would really like. And, and I think people appreciated that sort of informal discussion, which you can do if it’s a really early stage product, but you know, when you scale, you definitely need more structured implementations of that. There, there are a few really good tools out there now to help with. My friends are running this one called Dovetail, right? Yeah. It’s basically a user feedback collection sort of tool or their ex-Atlassian yeah, so yeah, that, that was a really good tool.  Brendan: I will definitely put that one in the show notes. So we’ve talked about, you know, early stage businesses, you know, starting their brand. What other tips can we give these guys? Like, we haven’t really talked about language and beginning to develop the product. Sort of talked about in different contexts. So what do they do? I mean, they’ve got a logo from 99 designs, for example, what are the next steps? Hayden: Yeah, I think that the easiest thing to remember about a brand is that only like 5% of the brand is the logo, but it’s the 5% that everybody focuses on. That’s true. The brand is actually more defined by its strategy. So the mission and vision of your company, that your values, your culture, how you want to be perceived versus how you are perceived. A lot of people. Yeah. Obviously they look at the brand and they look at the company and the logo is the brand, but really it’s sort of everything. It’s like, you know, it’s obviously the logo and like the back of your goods on the back of the iPhone or whatever it is, you know, having that stock apple logo. But it’s also the way that you talk to your customers, how they feel about you when they use your products. So they talk to your support team, this all sort of factors into the brand, but. A lot of companies don’t think about that. And they only start to think about it when they hire an agency. And the agency does a lot of this sort of upfront work for them. The strategy work.  Brendan: I remember when I had my first job out of university at UNICEF and a marketing manager, put a slide up on the. TV, you know, she had 10 logos and the question was, what are these? And obviously their logos, but, you know, trick question, it’s a brand and you know, she talked about Virgin or you ring up Virgin, they talk to you totally different than if you ring up Qantas  Hayden: Exactly. A brand’s a collection of, I guess like feelings and, and visuals even sounds that you associate with.  Brendan: And an interesting example I heard today Play-Doh actually trademarked the smell of Play-Doh. All kinds of sensors that you can associate with your brand. That’s right. So what about rebranding? So, when is it time to rebrand? Have you done much sort of rebranding work?  Hayden: Yeah. I’ve done quite a few rebrands. There’s one that I’m really keen to release. So this is like one of the first startups that we rebranded and it’s one of our best pace of work I reckon, but they haven’t launched their product and it’s been like two years or however long that I’ve been running this it’s like one year, nine months or something. They still haven’t launched. Apparently they’re still in QA phase, but I won’t name names. That’s a bit too harsh. I very much enjoy rate brands just because it means that the company’s already launched. They’ve already hopefully they’ve got, you know, some sort of product market fit or they’ve got users. And the reason that they’re coming to us to rebrand is because it’s for something it’s for it to solve a problem. And you know, that might be that people just aren’t, they’re not understanding what the company does or what the startup does just by rating the marketing side. It might be that when they use the product, that was a very different. Resulted they’re expecting from when they like went through the marketing site and saw that. But the biggest one that I’ve heard, the biggest reason the people generally want rebranding is that the company just doesn’t all the people, the staff of the employees in the company don’t identify with the company. They’re just like, yeah, I work here, but it’s not really my company. It’s more like a. Yeah, I’m just here for sort of the cash or whatever they want a reason to be there. And they want some sort of like solid identity, a logo that they can stand behind and be like, you know, this is, this is us with gorgeous center. Brendan: Have you got any stories of clients that you’ve worked with that have gone through this process, like a before and after?  Hayden: Yeah. Bra horror is a good example, right? They’re a self-driving car company based out of CSRO and. Right there. Actually, one of my favorite clients we’ve been working with them for, I think since we started the agency, there were a connect from Blackbird, I think, but they’re fantastic. Like the co-founders are really like open and they’re skilled their team ups so fast, but they’ve managed to keep that sort of like curious culture, which is great. Yeah. We did a rebrand for them. It was. It was sort of a half like just Brandon half rebrand because they had a logo that they only used internally. There were stealth startup basically. Right? So they have this logo that they created, which was just awful. But I’m sorry guys, if you’re listening to this, it was pretty horrible, but you know, it did unite the company in a way, at least they had something like a, you know, something to bounce off. So, but when they hide their head of marketing and they wanted to come out of. I think they realized that, you know, even though they’re selling to T1 manufacturers, OEMs, whatever, they’re not selling to companies, they’re selling to people and people, they identify with brands, they love stories. Right. And so that’s what we needed to create rather than we’re a self-driving car company. We needed to create the story around that, around why they exist. And you know, why you should sort of invest with them.  Brendan: And the intersection of storytelling and brand. How does  Hayden: that work? I think storytelling is basically the essence of branding. I have discussions with my mates occasionally about the soul, you know, and what the soul is comprised of. And so, and it’s very much the same as how branding works. And it’s basically a, you know, I reckon that the soul is sort of like a collection of stories. So the stories that you’ve told that you’ve experienced and that had been told to you in the lessons that you sort of pull out of them are what define you as a. And it works so well for branding because people don’t identify with logos or slogans or taglines. They identify with stories. They see themselves in, you know, in the shoes of the person who that you know, is being marketed to them. Like whether it’s, if it’s in a campaign video or a explain or something like that. Yeah. Getting deep on, sorry. Didn’t mean for it to get that deeper.  Brendan: No, no, that’s really good insight actually. And I mean, you’re a creative person, Hayden as well. How do you implement creative problem solving at chili pepper and for, you know, all of the clients that you work with.  Hayden: So, I mean, we have a process, we have a, like a playbook, like every agency does, it’s very difficult to work without one, you know, that’s what we had to do. I guess when you started shooting or you don’t have like a playbook, you don’t have anything ready. So you just sort of figure it out as you go. And you know, some of our best projects were, were run like that. But if you don’t have a structure, it’s very difficult to repeat that success. Outcome. Yeah. So we have these playbooks that are certain parts of very structured. It’s like how to do, you know, how to build websites, how to design them, how to get to a really good outcome. It’s like focusing on, you know, performance this year, that sort of thing. But for the branding side of things, it’s usually more of like a black box. So we have things that we have to do at the start as in like questions that we have to ask research that we have to collect stuff like that. But then the middle is sort of a black box where we just. Dive into it. There’s not a lot of precedents with these sorts of brands, you know, it’s like self-driving cars, AI, whatever. So there’s not a lot of companies that you can look to and be like, that’s sort of the industry standard for AI. So we sort of have to sit down and really think about like, okay, if we’re defining the direction for this market, what do we want this market to look like? Yeah. And I think that’s probably. The, I dunno, I guess, competitive advantage of whatever for our companies that were particularly good at that, figuring out what companies with no precedent should look like.  Brendan: What’s it like? I mean, what’s the experience been like working with these type of companies that it must be pretty exciting.  Hayden: It’s really fun. I know way too much now about your light refractions, very radiation, you know, 3d cell cultures, all that sort of stuff. You absorb all this stuff. No, it’s really great. Like the teams are always fantastic because they’re always, you know, the startup teams, their founders, and the early Billie employees who are like really excited to be there. And the ideas that we’re working on, the startups that we try to take on board are what we call disruptive startups. So it’s like, yeah, like I was sort of saying startups with like no precedent startups that are sort of working on, you know, really interesting tech, you know, self-driving cars, AI, well, that’s something so. Yeah, no, I absolutely love working with the teams. They don’t always have a really good direction. It’s really hard to, you know, we’re working with a 3d biotech company at the moment. Right? How the hell do you brand that, you know, it’s like what, what other company do you look at? Do you look at research labs? Do you look at like medical? Do you look into. You know, so I guess that’s sort of where we come in. That’s where we have to help out.  Brendan: And in terms of learning – you’re working with these disruptive startups. I mean, yourself, you’ve been in product, you’ve been a full-stack developer. You’ve dabbled in data science as well. Yep. So how has some of the ways that you learn how to learn? How do you learn?  Hayden: Learn how to learn. I think it depends on what I’m trying to learn. Like some, most of what I learned is not, I don’t have a structured approach. I don’t do it through courses or anything like that. Like some people that I know they pick up on new things really fast. If they’re doing like a university course, or if they’re doing an online course, I tend to learn best by just being thrown into the deep end and just try and figure it out. So that’s sort of how I went to develop. We didn’t get taught a bunch of great things at uni. Yeah. It was mainly Java and had to deal with, you know, enterprise. So yeah, I guess most of my thing was it was just like, I really want to build an app. I really want to design an app. I really want to. Set up like behavioral, you know, data collection or something like that. How do I think it should work and then just go forward from there and try to figure it out. It’s a very unstructured approach and probably slower than, than doing a course.  Brendan: Sounds good. And what do you wish you were more of an expert on, in business at the moment in business. Okay. Main design and branding as well.  Hayden: Yeah. I can think of design and branding. That’s a fairly, I’d really love to be. Or at least not have to be a good one, but just have some illustration skills.  Brendan: Right. So you’re not a crash shot illustrator.  Hayden: No, I can draw boxes and color those boxes, but yeah, when it comes to like creating original shapes and stuff like that I can draw stick figures. I’m pretty good at that, but that’s, as far as I’ve gotten so far. Brendan: What has you most excited about branding and design in 2019?  Hayden: I think just. We’re breaking away from a lot of trends. Like I think 20 17, 20 18, everyone was following all these trends that were either set by Apple or by Stripe when they came out with their rebrand. You know, everybody jumped on that bandwagon and followed that style with heavy drop shadows and gradients and all that sort of thing. But I think people are starting to see now that those patents are super repeated and triple for instance, you know, this like designer showcase site is starting to fill up with the exact. Work, right. Everything just looks the same. It’s it’s what they call dribble porn.  Yeah. So I think I’m starting to see a lot of designers really break away from the trends and go for, you know, brutalist or go for like traditional style. And I really am very excited to see how that reflects in branding.  Brendan: So it could be an advantage for an early stage community to reverse the trend and, you know, maybe get some more got through that way. Hayden: Yeah. I think just like, don’t think too heavily about what’s on trend right now. Just like, think about you’re coming back to strategy, thinking. Your culture and your values and what you really like as people and how that reflects in your logo and your color palette of that’s something  Brendan: Are there any tools that you like to use every day for design and branding? Maybe under a hundred dollars, you wouldn’t go to the pro stuff right now? Hayden: Actually, I don’t think I use a lot of software that’s expensive.  Brendan: Creative cloud?, Hayden: Not even like, you know, we’ve all jumped ship from Adobe now.  Brendan: Oh really? What are you guys using?  Hayden: Our illustrators still use illustrator. Yeah. But you know, other than that, we’re on Sketch, Figma, you know, just using all those sorts of tools. Cause we mainly do product design app design, web design, so right. And that tool is like that sort of space is really competitive right now. Frame, sketch, Figma was the Adobe one XD or something like that. So that’s a super competitive space. I think the tools that I use though on daily basis – notion is a really good one. What’s that? Oh my gosh. It’s like, oh, it’s so great. It’s basically like Confluence. Yeah. Except not part of the Atlassian suite. It’s like a document editor, but you can put all sorts of amazing stuff in it, so you can embed PDF so you can embed SoundCloud tracks, you can make timelines. So you put in a bunch of daughter and then you can visualize that as a calendar or a timeline or a to do list. Like it’s really flexible. Yeah. So we’ve actually used that for all of that. I guess I’ll tasks now at Jellypepper, sir, rather than operating on like that sort of standard Kanban style where it’s like, here’s the things to be done. Just move them into, you know, in progress, done, whatever all of our work is actually more document heavy. So we start a document. We, you know, write down what we’re thinking. We have discussions around that and I sort of liked that because there’s a lot more meaning in the work that we do. Yeah. So rather than like here we have to 3d model something, just move into Don. It’s like, yeah. Let’s talk about the lighting. Let’s talk about how we’re supposed to be feeling when we see this. And yeah. It’s a lot more interesting discussions happening. No, that’s super interesting.  Brendan: And talking about your design mentors, who do you look up?  Hayden: Ooh, that’s a good one. I’ve always loved Tobias van Schneider’s work, He’s this Austrian designer. He used to be the art director at Spotify and now he runs Semplus which is like a portfolio tool for designers. His work has always been great.  Brendan: We’ll definitely put him in the show notes. And what are some of your favorite brands at the moment? Design-wise okay. I mean, it could be on any level. Really?  Hayden: Yeah. So my favorite brands that I’ve seen are always from these two agencies that I follow. So I’ve modeled Jellypepper as best I can. Anyway, after these two really brilliant studios in the U S Ueno and MetaLab so, you know, both of them have worked with, you know, Slack, one of them branded oughta, the AI transcription service. You know, clean motion zero the banking app. Oh yeah. They’ve had some massive clients, obviously they’ve done the whole, like, you know, Google, Apple, that sort of thing. But the brands that they’re coming out with are like very fresh, very thoughtful. Awesome.  Brendan: I will definitely put those guys in the show notes as well for inspiration. So Hayden wanted to thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of your knowledge about design and branding. Super valuable. I’m going to put all the resources that Hayden has mentioned in the show notes that you guys can find thatMetigy.com/podcast.. So we’re coming towards the end of the podcast now. We have a couple of abstract questions that we’d like to ask all of our guests. First question. If you could have a billboard, it could be anywhere in the world. Where would you put it? And what would it say might even have to go a bit deeper here and talk a bit about the design since we have you on the show as well.  Hayden: If I had to have a billboard anywhere, where would it be? Do you know what I would do? I would put a giant billboard in front of the the Hollywood sign. I would just cover that up completely. That’s on the Hollywood Hills. What would it be for though? It’d have to be for something that just annoys the whole of LA.  Brendan: Trolling the whole of LA. Yeah. Yeah.  Hayden: “Come to New York. See the east coast.”  Yeah. No. Do you know what would be? It would probably be a thing for gun control. Yeah. That’d be really funny. Yeah.  Brendan: That’s a good billboard. And the final question, Hayden, are you ready for launch? I’m ready because you’re on the first flight to Mars with Elon Musk. You guys can talk a bit about branding and product. I think it takes two years to get to Mars as well. So you have a bit of time. So you’re with a long and the first settlers are both the space X star ship rocket. So what business do you start when you land on Mars and how would you promote it to the new Martians? Hayden: I’m tempted to say Instagram, just because I’m really, I think it’d be really funny just to see like a thousand filtered pictures of red dirt every day, and everyone just commenting on each other’s.  Brendan: What about the new martians?  Hayden: I think I would probably do an interplanetary telco. That would be really fun. Yeah. It’s like the first thing that you’d want to do when you land on Mars is sort of like check in with back home, see how everything is going and the branding around that. Oh my God. That would be so easy. I mean, just tug at the heartstrings, you know?  Brendan: Any name for the telco?  Hayden: I’ve always been terrible at naming companies. That’s why I’ve changed the name of the agency three times. The first one was lightsaber. And that was sort of like a working name because, you know, it’s just like, okay, we’ve got clients, we need something to call ourselves. And then I’m like, all right, I don’t want to get sued. So we’ll change it to Erudito. And that was cool. That was like that’s Spanish and Italian for erudite, which is like someone who’s knowledgeable or a veteran, someone who’s learned. Those are the sorts of people that we wanted to hire, but nobody can spell that. And we got the D.TO domain, and I don’t know how much you know, about how fast the DNS propagation is in Tonga, but that didn’t really work for us. Plus it was like, you know, not giving off the right vibe. So I think we’re hopefully at the right brain this time.  Brendan: Yeah, no, I really like the name Jellypepper. Hayden: I have no idea though, what I would call it. Hmm, that’s a tough one. I would probably hire a branding agency for that.  Brendan: Like Jellypepper.  Hayden: Yeah.  Brendan: Well, Hayden, thanks so much for coming in today. All of Hayden’s show notes can be found at Metigy.com/podcast. And before we go, anything you’d like to say Hayden, and how can people get in touch? Hayden: I would want to say thanks for having me. It’s been great. Get in touch. I don’t know. You can tweet me. I’m always around. I’m always retweeting dumb things on Twitter, or you can, you know, I think I’ve got a new website coming out soon for myself and for Jellypepper, which is nice. So yeah, just hit us up there and I’m always open for a coffee.  Brendan: So Jellypepper.com?  Hayden: That’s right.  Brendan: Awesome. Definitely check it out guys. There’s a lot of good. Branding and design case studies from inception to delivery. And that’s how I originally found out about you Hayden some nice content marketing there.  Hayden: Thanks man.  Brendan: It’s been good. Thanks for coming in and good luck in the future. Hayden: My pleasure. Thank you. Daren: From Metigy, you’ve just listened to Forward Thinking. Again, I’m Daren and Metigy hopes we helped you find more insights and tips into your business to find out more about messaging and get a listener exclusive three month free trial. Visit us at Metigy.com/podcast. 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